Weird Stuff in the Bible

Binding and Loosing revisited: Spiritual warfare or church discipline?
Matthew 16, 18, John 21 and I Corinthians 5

Introduction
I was challenged about a past episode over whether I’d properly done my homework in my research of binding and loosing.
This was in regard to episode 52, simply called Prayers of Binding and Loosing.
In that episode from last fall, my conclusion was that Matthew 16:19 was about spiritual warfare, and I covered this in the midst of a series of episodes on spiritual warfare. I spoke about binding demons, loosing people and setting them free, things like that.
Someone listened to that episode and challenged me on my interpretation, saying I hadn’t given a fair hearing to another way that those verses are often taken, which is about church discipline.
In fact, Jesus speaks of prayers of binding and loosing in only two places: there in Matthew 16, and Matthew 18, where it says:
In verse 18
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
And undoubtedly, that verse is in a church discipline context.
I did not cover that in last fall’s episode, and I have to admit, it was a pretty big oversight. Maybe not as big as saying that Jesus wasn’t really crucified with literal nails, so at least I didn’t have the biggest blunder of this week, but if I’m perfectly honest, Matthew 18 deserves to be covered in the binding and loosing conversation.
So did I get it wrong? Is binding and loosing actually about church discipline? And if it’s not, why is it talked about right here in a church discipline passage?
I find this to be weird, and I’d like to explore why it’s in the Bible.
And if you listen all the way to the end today, I have a huge announcement about something I’ve been working on behind the scenes for the past few months.
Turn to Matthew 18, and let’s get weird.
[theme music]

My View in Review
Welcome to Weird Stuff in the Bible, where we explore scripture passages that are bizarre, perplexing or just plain weird. This is Luke Taylor, and today we’re going to be talking about prayers of binding and loosing- again.
And maybe I shouldn’t be too hard on Christianity Today, since they apologized. They actually did a report this past week claiming that perhaps Jesus was crucified with ropes instead of nails. They got raked over the coals for that article, and they put out an apology for even publishing it. So we all make mistakes, even the big dogs.
But did I make a mistake in my episode about Binding and Loosing last fall? Let’s find out.
So there are two main views as to what Jesus meant by binding and loosing in Matthew 16. And perhaps for a recap, let’s just re-read the verse, even though it’s a passage I’ve covered from a lot of angles on this podcast. It’s in the midst of a conversation with Jesus and His disciples, a major turning point in the Gospel story, and Jesus said in
Matthew 16:18-19
18 “…And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
What did Jesus mean about keys, kingdom, gates of hades, bind on earth, bound in heaven- there are a lot of unique phrases here.
So in last fall’s episode, I discussed what this vocabulary meant at the time of Jesus. I said that this was about spiritual authority; more specifically, our authority over evil spirits. My evidence for this, primarily, is that this is how the Bible often uses the terms “binding” and “loosing.” That spirits can be bound or set free.
Some of the evidences of this can be seen in Matthew 12:29, Luke 13:12 and 13:16, Revelation 20:1-3 and 7, and Revelation 9:14. We could also throw Mark 3:27 in there, even though it’s just a parallel to Matthew 12.
And then if we wanted to go into other literature of that time period, we could have explored how the Book of Enoch, the book of Tobit, the Testament of Levi or the writings of Josephus back up this usage of binding and loosing referring to binding and loosing spiritual entities.
Even if you don’t accept those sources as legitimate, they still establish that the vocabulary of that day- the Greek deo and luo- saw this as spiritual warfare language. It seemed clear to me that this is what Jesus meant.

The Church Discipline View
But there is another perspective on how these verses are to be understood, and it’s that this is actually talking about church discipline. That this language of binding and loosing is about a different kind of authority, but not so much over spiritual beings as it is about the church’s authority over human beings.
And I briefly entertained this view in that episode before rejecting it. But what I got called out on- and I would say rightfully called out on- is that I didn’t present the strongest evidence for this perspective in that episode- which is Matthew 18.
Now, it was so many months ago that I don’t know if I just overlooked this in my research, or if I just had bad sources that didn’t bring this up either, but let’s take a look at Matthew 18 and see if it contradicts my earlier conclusion.
Interesting factoid, for people who like Bible trivia: despite the ubiquity of the word “church” in the New Testament- or “ekklessia” in the Greek- Jesus only speaks the word “church” two times. It comes up 114 times in the New Testament, but Jesus only uses the word church twice. Not counting Revelation, I guess.
So what are the two places? Well, it actually happens to be the same two places that Jesus speaks of binding and loosing: Matthew 16 and 18. We already looked at 16, but now let’s read 18 in context.
Matthew 18:15-20
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Without a doubt, this is one of the quintessential passages on church discipline. I think it is, anyway. I never looked up the definition of the word “quintessential” before, but this feels like the right place to use it.
Jesus gives a process by which to handle disagreements between two Christians. First you can deal with it one-on-one. If you can’t work it out that way, bring a couple more people into the conversation. And if there’s clear agreement amongst this small group about who’s at fault and the guilty party still won’t own up to his error, then bring it before the whole church. And if he still won’t admit fault, he must be kicked out of the church. Treat him like you treat the IRS. You say, “Stay out of my church until you get right with God.” Which is exactly what I say to the IRS.
And that’s actually all well and clear until you get to verse 18, where suddenly Jesus brings this binding and loosing language into it again.
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Basically exactly what He told Peter two chapters earlier right after saying He was giving Him the keys to the kingdom. Except right here, the word “you” is plural, meaning this is an authority that Jesus is giving to all of the church, not just Peter. To put it in southern dialect, Jesus is saying “whatever ya’ll bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever ya’ll loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
When the church collectively makes a pronouncement in this manner, it carries the authority of heaven. God backs up what they’re saying. If they are in line with the Bible and this one individual is disagreeing with them, then God is saying that He stands with His church in their judgment on this individual.
Verse 19
19 “Again I say to [ya’ll] that if two of [ya’ll] agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
You know, if EVERYONE is saying you’re wrong, and you still want to plant your flag in the ground and say you’re right, you might be tempted to say, “God knows. God knows my heart.”
And this verse is telling that believer: you probably shouldn’t expect God to be on your side either. Yeah, God knows your heart. But do you know your own heart? If you have a roomful of people who generally follow the Bible and love God and love their fellow man and they all think you’re wrong, you’re probably safer just saying, “OK, I must be wrong. I’m sorry. I don’t even understand why I’m wrong, but I submit to the authority of my brothers and sisters in Christ.” Even if you don’t get it, just go with it, because it’s very very unlikely that the whole church is hearing from God wrong and you’re right. If it’s a good church, that is.
And so this church has a divine authority to say whether you’re “in the club” or not. I’m not speaking of your ultimate salvation, but I’m speaking of whether you’re welcome in the church,
So it seems to me that there’s also a pretty good case right here that binding and loosing is about church discipline, not spiritual warfare, because virtually the same language as what’s in Matthew 16 is used.
And that’s probably also why this is tied in with another mysterious but very similar statement of Jesus in
John 20:23
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

A case study in Corinth?
But hold up. Wait a minute. Put a little love in it.
When it says that God is going to back up what the church decides, what exactly does that mean? In a practical way. Even if not in the physical realm, what does it mean is going on in the spiritual realm. That’s what it would have to mean by “in heaven,” right?
And is this saying that we- the members of the church- have the right to forgive someone’s sins? And if a Christian goes into unrepentant sin, does that mean we have the authority to cancel or annul their salvation? I’m starting to get a lot of questions here.
But perhaps we can tie all of this together by looking at another famous passage on church discipline: I Corinthians 5. In fact, this one might be even more quintissentialer than Matthew 18. This is a case study that Paul gives us in his letter to the Corinthian church. And if you ever thought your church had problems, this chapter will probably make you feel a little better about yourself.
I Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
There is a case of incest going on in this church. And not only that, it’s tolerated. And not only that, at least some in the church are proud of their acceptance of this alternative lifestyle.
I remember about 10-15 years ago that “tolerance” was a popular buzzword in the culture. This was in the midst of the gay marriage debate, and Christians were constantly told that they just needed to be more tolerant.
But guess what: tolerance is not a Christian virtue. Sin is not to be tolerated. It is to be disciplined, or punished, or cast out. And open sexual immorality is not to be accepted within the church.
In the Corinthian church here, it says that there’s a man who has his father’s wife. So, it’s probably his stepmom. Probably not his biological mom, because of the way it’s phrased here. The father is probably out of the picture; maybe even dead. But regardless, this is still defined as sexual immorality under Old Testament law. It would have gotten you the death penalty under the Mosaic law. But in New Testament times, it would just get you excommunicated from the church.
Now, it wouldn’t if you repented. But assuming this man in the Corinthian church refused to repent, he is to be kicked out.
And I also got to thinking, it’s kind of strange that the Scripture here isn’t talking about kicking her out as well; perhaps she’s not a member of this church. So perhaps she’s not a member of this congregation, Perhaps this isn’t talking about a family in the church; perhaps just one man attending. Maybe he’s a wealthy man who’s well-known in the community; perhaps he’s a politician, like the town mayor. And perhaps this is why the people are proud to have him there.
I’m just speculating. I’m trying to understand why they’d be proud to have this guy. Perhaps he’s the mayor of Corinth, and everybody in the community knows he’s carrying on in a relationship with his father’s wife, and the church people know it’s wrong, but they’re just so proud to have such a dignified official in their midst, how it gives the church credibility to have him attending their church. It makes them feel special.
But Paul slaps that down. He says you shouldn’t be tolerating that kind of open sexual immorality in your church. He needs to be held accountable for his actions. And if he refuses to repent, Paul says to kick him out. But Paul says something very interesting as he talks about this.
Verse 5 again:
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
What does Paul mean by this- to deliver him to Satan. Understanding this will mean understanding what it means to be in the Kingdom of God. And perhaps more importantly: what it means to NOT be in the Kingdom of God.
We have discussed the Deuteronomy 32 worldview before; the idea that various sectors of the earth are under the control of these spiritual beings known as the Watchers or the Sons of God. Their job is to assist God in ruling the world, though not all of these Sons of God do as they’re supposed to. These are not demons; these are more like the principalities in charge of demons.
And of course, all of the evil spiritual beings are ultimately under Satan’s control. For proof, see Luke 11:18. He has a certain amount of authority throughout this whole world. In Matthew 4, Satan took Jesus, somehow, to a place where they could see all the kingdoms of the world, and he offers them to Jesus on a silver platter. Jesus turned the offer down, but the offer was legitimate. This was one of the temptations of Christ, and if Satan couldn’t truly offer all the nations of the world to Jesus, then it wouldn’t have been a legitimate temptation. So Satan has a lot of dominion on this planet- dominion that I would say was given up when Adam and Even sinned back in Genesis 3.
And part of the church’s mission is taking dominion BACK. There is a place that Satan does not have dominion, and that is over you: the church. See also John 17:15. If you’re a christian, you have been set free from Satan. And when you gather with other Christians, you are creating a church. Because as has been said many times but we often need the reminder: the church is not a building with four walls and a roof. The church is you. We are the church.
We want to respect the building, but the building is not special because of the name on the sign out front. The church is special because of who is gathering there. So when Christians come together, what is happening in the spiritual realm? Well, we read it earlier in that passage from Matthew 18.
Verse 20:
“For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
When we Christians come together, God manifests in our midst. No, we can’t see Him, though we often feel Him. But whether you feel Him or not, He is there.
And we need to take the presence of God seriously. The place where we gather is holy ground. Not saying we need to take our shoes off, but we need to treat the church gathering as a place of honor because the Spirit of God is going to be there.
And we might take a few clues from the Old Testament Israelites. Their Temple was a place of God’s manifest presence. It had the Ark, the altar, the Holy of Holies, and the priests took great care to keep it a sanitized and holy environment, and wouldn’t let anything defiling or unholy come in. Well if we turn back a page in
I Corinthians to 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
As Dr. Michael Heiser says in his book The Unseen Realm, “wherever believers are and gather, the spiritual ground they occupy is sacred amid the powers of darkness.” That’s why if I ever started a church, I’d like to call it “Holy Ground.” I’m sure a church has already used that before, but I just love that name for a church, because that’s what we are: holy ground.
So we’re going to keep our church holy and pure, and that means if there’s a person living in unrepentant sin in our church, they have to be cast out or our temple is defiled, and God might destroy us.
So it’s for our benefit that we remove the sinner from our midst. It’s for our church’s benefit to see firsthand that sin is not tolerated. And it’s also for the sinner’s benefit. Perhaps this man who is in a relationship with his stepmom will come to repentance and realize that this was wrong.
But it’s going to be a hard lesson to learn. He’s going to have to be cast out of the spiritual protection of the church, the Holy Ground, where God’s presence dwells, and be forced out into the wilderness of the world, the realm of Satan.
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Let Satan have him. And Satan is gonna make this guy miserable. Because this guy is trying to live in two worlds. He wants a foot in the church and a foot in the world. That’s the most miserable of all existences.
Someone can live with two feet in the church and have an abundant life. Someone can live with two feet in the world and have a pretty good time as well. They’ll die and go to hell, but they’ll enjoy their time on this planet because the Bible says sin is sweet for a short time, the fleeting pleasures of sin. Someone can live it up for the short time they have on this earth, if they want to.
But the most miserable people of all are those people who want one foot in the world and one in the church, and they won’t just make up their mind and commit to one. Well now you’re making nobody happy, especially not yourself.
But if this man is kicked out of the church, perhaps in his misery, he will seek the Lord, and be restored to his relationship with God and with God’s church.
What happened to the man in I Corinthians 5? We actually get an ending to that story, and we’ll look at it in just a minute as we close down today.

NEXT TIME
Next time on this podcast, I have a big announcement for you all. Something I don’t think I’ve mentioned yet on this podcast, only for those who receive my newsletter, but I’m going to say it now.
I am launching a website component to this podcast and this ministry. The website is going to be WeirdStuffInTheBible.com. If you go there now, it’s just a blank page. Unless you hear this after May 4, because May 4, 2025, is the launch date for WeirdStuffInTheBible.com.
It is not a website to promote this podcast. I’ll have a page about the podcast, but the point of this site is not to just point people to the podcast. The point is going to do the exact same thing that the podcast does: answer peoples’ questions about weird stuff in the Bible.
So next week, I won’t be putting out a whole new episode. I’m going to get the website launched and I’ll release a mini-episode telling you about everything it offers. And then going forward, I’ll still be doing my weekly episodes of the podcast, but I’ll also be creating totally separate new content for the website.
My hope is that the website becomes a great resource for people so that when they go to google and type in, “What are the Nephilim, what are the Sons of God, what did Jesus mean by binding and loosing,” that this website will come up and answer those questions for people.
So thank you to everyone who has hung with me lately. I know I aired a repeat episode last week and did a mailbag episode the week before that, so things have been a little irregular lately as I’ve been getting this website put together. But soon, I’ll be back in my regular podcast routine soon. Next week will just be an announcement about the website, and in two weeks we should get back into normal- but a new normal, as I’ll be releasing a lot of bonus content on the site.
Make sure you’re subscribed so you can everything that is to come!
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Closing Thoughts
In closing, let’s go back to my original question. Did I get it wrong? Is binding and loosing actually NOT about spiritual warfare and actually about church discipline?
Well what if…it’s both? What if church discipline actually is a component of spiritual warfare? And based on what we’ve studied today, I’d say that’s absolutely the case.
We might have thought of church discipline before as something very earthly. That it only pertains to the church congregation that we’re managing down here on earth.
But what if a person being cast out of the church because of unrepentant sin is also being bound by Satan. Now this is someone who needs to be loosed.
So what are we going to do? We’re going to treat him like trash? Are we going to to throw dirt or rocks at him if he comes walking down the street?
That’s not how Jesus treated the sinners and tax collectors He met. He loved them. He called them to repentance, but He didn’t treat them with hate. He even ate meals with them. He didn’t participate in their sin, but He still loved them in spite of it.
So I probably need to call the IRS and apologize for some things I’ve said today.
We’re not going to desire that the sinner we have to cast out of church lives in this torment of one foot in the world and one foot in the church for the rest of his life. We’re going to pray that he’s loosed and set from from these things that Satan is using to bind him, even if he has to learn it the hard way.
And that’s exactly what happened in this story. Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians- called II Corinthians- addresses this guy again. It says:
II Corinthians 2:6-8 says
6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.
See, it’s as simple as hold up, wait a minute, put a little love in it.
Church discipline works because spiritual warfare works. So I don’t think I was wrong about binding and loosing being spiritual warfare language. I still believe we can bind demons with our prayers.
I was, however, wrong to leave Matthew 18 out of the equation back in the fall. But I hope I was able to fix it by digging in to some of these weird verses in I Corinthians 5.
The Bible is not weird. WE are weird, because we don’t know about how we are holy ground, we are walking embassies of the Kingdom of God, and everything outside of us is the dominion of the devil. But now we do. Thanks for listening, God bless you for sticking around until the end, and we’ll see you next time on Weird Stuff in the Bible.